Benetton v Ulster Saturday January 7 1pm KO (UK Time) Viaplay (Premier) Sports 1 / URC TV / Super Sport

[jean valjean]

Did you bother to read the nigh on 20 years bit??


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I did. Didn't realise 17 years = 20 years.

Fan expectation has been chronically too high for nigh on 20 years.

Ah, you also don't appear to realise what nigh on means
Carry on regardless sure, we're brill so we are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Better answer please.

Let's stick to the rugby rather than personal insults, get a bit of debate going and improve the argument.

So our level of expectation should be based on the Ulster team during the amateur era of the 80s and 90s..... I'll assume early 90s as we did nothing after the 94 inter pros until we scraped out of our group in 99 and won a European Cup with no Justins in it.

We've won one league since Irish teams joined in 2001.

This isn't directed at yourself Soda, theres an overwhelming majority think we should be winning silverware every season.

Truth is we've never shown pedigree in the pro era to indicate we should be.

It's possible we're the worst in the world at it, never mind Europe.

World domination at last.

[CIMANFOREVER]

World class bottlers

[So It Is]

Rate your 3 top periods/moments of depression as an Ulster supporter (Nev Spence excluded):

1. Feb-Apr 2018
2. Nov 22 to present
3. Robbie Diack making a bieber of himself at the RDS

Noticable mentions:

-Les Kiss' reign
-Jono Gibbes' reign
-Pienaar getting the boot
-Having to go and buy a rather large round of drinks at HT at Twickers 2012 after the craic being mighty all morning/afternoon pre-game

[UlsterNo9]

Ireland aren't producing enough. We will see this backline soon. Nuciwank out.

JGP
Carberry
Lowe
Aki
Firsch
Hansen
Haley

Assume Nuciwank is well aware that the Ulster schools and club pathway has not produced one international forward in over a decade?
Should he not be dragging Ulster over the hot coals at their lack of producing a local capable of being a big lad.

Interestingly Nuciwank doesn't seem to be anywhere near this wavelength ...... and there in lies the problem, article on the42.ie last week, posted below. Reckons the Irish system has too much talent and not enough space for it.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-talent-sp ... -Jan2023/

Does Irish rugby have enough space for the talent it's producing?
Ben Healy is heading for an opportunity in Scotland and the IRFU worries about other young players leaving.

LAST OCTOBER AS IRFU performance director David Nucifora gave a state-of-the-nation address, he issued a warning about Irish rugby’s ability to continue to house the young talent it’s producing.

“What’s happening now is that we have a model where over the next couple of years, we’re going to run out of space,” said Nucifora as he discussed whether emerging Irish players were getting enough chances to play.

“If everyone down the bottom keeps doing their job as well as they have done it or we keep improving there, we’re going to run out of space in the provinces.

“We’ve got less opportunity for these talented players sitting at the back end of the squads. The reality is those players will look elsewhere if they don’t get time.”

Someone with a sharp memory reminded us of these words this week when it was confirmed that Munster out-half Ben Healy is upping sticks and heading for Scotland.

Obviously, there’s a strong Test rugby element to his story and Healy has actually had a fair bit of time in the saddle with his province in recent seasons, but he could see that Munster now have Joey Carbery and Jack Crowley above him in their out-half pecking order. As for Ireland, Healy knew he wasn’t really part of the pecking order at all.

So this talented 23-year-old out-half rejected the offer of a new Munster deal and decided to take advantage of his Scottish eligibility. Irish rugby has often been the poacher in the past but now one of its young players has been poached.

To be fair, this eligibility strand wasn’t what Nucifora was talking about last year, but his message was clear. As he praised the quality of those working in the Irish rugby pipeline – the schools game, the youths system, the academies, the underage national coaching teams – he also pointed out that four professional provinces can only fit so many of the products of that pipeline.

Nucifora is more specifically worried about English clubs signing Irish players.

“What will happen is that England will come looking for better, cheaper players and it’s no surprise where they’re going to come looking,” he said.

Even for the Irish youngsters who make it through the very tight funnel to earn provincial contracts, there are only so many playing minutes to go around, all the more so with the URC having reduced its regular season from 21 games to 18.

How often has it been the case that a very talented U20 international has had to wait a few years to get any notable exposure at senior level?

In one way, it’s a positive that it’s so hard for young players to break through with the provinces. It means they have to be excellent to make the grade. Only the cream of the crop make it through. But on the other hand, this bottleneck can be seen as a big issue for Irish rugby, one that restricts more talent from actually playing senior rugby and broadening the national team pool.

It’s always interesting to scan through the teamsheet of the France U20 teams who play Ireland. Often, the majority of the French players will have some Top 14 or Pro D2 experience already, whereas their Irish counterparts are miles away from getting exposure for their provinces. It helps that France has 30 professional clubs.

Does Irish rugby need another club side? When it was mischievously put to Nucifora that the IRFU should launch a fifth province in Cork, he had a right old chuckle.

“That would be good, that wouldn’t create many problems!” said Nucifora.

When someone else suggested that the IRFU should buy a Premiership club, Nucifora said it was more important to be smart in how they work with the four provinces. And yet, he didn’t totally kibosh the notion.

“Does it rule out that you’ll never have a fifth team? I don’t think so,” he said.

“You’ve got to keep that on the table, but at the moment I think you’ve got to look at the model and how that can be adapted and manipulated because everything we do has to be financially sustainable as well.”

Nucifora continues to be a fan of player movement between the provinces. He would love to see second-choice players in one province go elsewhere to become first-choice players. Arguably, the four best hookers in Ireland are all currently with Leinster and Ulster.

Nucifora would probably even love to do a draft to spread the talent more evenly. He has had some wins in the area of inter-provincial movement but has also had to accept that provincial pride and tradition are very real.

In a strange way, it wouldn’t be a surprise if Nucifora really respects what Healy is doing. This is an ambitious young man who was in no way content with the idea of being third-choice in his province and off the radar with his country. He had no intention of holding tackle bags and watching from the stands for the big games. He wants opportunities at the highest level. Healy’s drive should be admired.

Connacht and Ulster didn’t make a play to keep him in Ireland, with Munster being the only province to offer him a contract. So off he heads to make a name for himself with the Scots.

In other instances, there won’t be the carrot of Test rugby but it will be fascinating to see how accurate Nucifora’s prophecy about the provinces ‘running out of space’ for emerging Irish talent will be.

“We have to be creative and thoughtful about what’s going to happen next,” said the Australian.

“I’m not 100% sure what it is yet but we have to find ways for those players to be given hope and opportunities.”

Figuring that one out before he heads off into the sunset would be quite the legacy.

[Dave]

Ireland aren't producing enough. We will see this backline soon. Nuciwank out.

JGP
Carberry
Lowe
Aki
Firsch
Hansen
Haley

Assume Nuciwank is well aware that the Ulster schools and club pathway has not produced one international forward in over a decade?
Should he not be dragging Ulster over the hot coals at their lack of producing a local capable of being a big lad.

Interestingly Nuciwank doesn't seem to be anywhere near this wavelength ...... and there in lies the problem, article on the42.ie last week, posted below. Reckons the Irish system has too much talent and not enough space for it.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-talent-sp ... -Jan2023/

Does Irish rugby have enough space for the talent it's producing?
Ben Healy is heading for an opportunity in Scotland and the IRFU worries about other young players leaving.

LAST OCTOBER AS IRFU performance director David Nucifora gave a state-of-the-nation address, he issued a warning about Irish rugby’s ability to continue to house the young talent it’s producing.

“What’s happening now is that we have a model where over the next couple of years, we’re going to run out of space,” said Nucifora as he discussed whether emerging Irish players were getting enough chances to play.

“If everyone down the bottom keeps doing their job as well as they have done it or we keep improving there, we’re going to run out of space in the provinces.

“We’ve got less opportunity for these talented players sitting at the back end of the squads. The reality is those players will look elsewhere if they don’t get time.”

Someone with a sharp memory reminded us of these words this week when it was confirmed that Munster out-half Ben Healy is upping sticks and heading for Scotland.

Obviously, there’s a strong Test rugby element to his story and Healy has actually had a fair bit of time in the saddle with his province in recent seasons, but he could see that Munster now have Joey Carbery and Jack Crowley above him in their out-half pecking order. As for Ireland, Healy knew he wasn’t really part of the pecking order at all.

So this talented 23-year-old out-half rejected the offer of a new Munster deal and decided to take advantage of his Scottish eligibility. Irish rugby has often been the poacher in the past but now one of its young players has been poached.

To be fair, this eligibility strand wasn’t what Nucifora was talking about last year, but his message was clear. As he praised the quality of those working in the Irish rugby pipeline – the schools game, the youths system, the academies, the underage national coaching teams – he also pointed out that four professional provinces can only fit so many of the products of that pipeline.

Nucifora is more specifically worried about English clubs signing Irish players.

“What will happen is that England will come looking for better, cheaper players and it’s no surprise where they’re going to come looking,” he said.

Even for the Irish youngsters who make it through the very tight funnel to earn provincial contracts, there are only so many playing minutes to go around, all the more so with the URC having reduced its regular season from 21 games to 18.

How often has it been the case that a very talented U20 international has had to wait a few years to get any notable exposure at senior level?

In one way, it’s a positive that it’s so hard for young players to break through with the provinces. It means they have to be excellent to make the grade. Only the cream of the crop make it through. But on the other hand, this bottleneck can be seen as a big issue for Irish rugby, one that restricts more talent from actually playing senior rugby and broadening the national team pool.

It’s always interesting to scan through the teamsheet of the France U20 teams who play Ireland. Often, the majority of the French players will have some Top 14 or Pro D2 experience already, whereas their Irish counterparts are miles away from getting exposure for their provinces. It helps that France has 30 professional clubs.

Does Irish rugby need another club side? When it was mischievously put to Nucifora that the IRFU should launch a fifth province in Cork, he had a right old chuckle.

“That would be good, that wouldn’t create many problems!” said Nucifora.

When someone else suggested that the IRFU should buy a Premiership club, Nucifora said it was more important to be smart in how they work with the four provinces. And yet, he didn’t totally kibosh the notion.

“Does it rule out that you’ll never have a fifth team? I don’t think so,” he said.

“You’ve got to keep that on the table, but at the moment I think you’ve got to look at the model and how that can be adapted and manipulated because everything we do has to be financially sustainable as well.”

Nucifora continues to be a fan of player movement between the provinces. He would love to see second-choice players in one province go elsewhere to become first-choice players. Arguably, the four best hookers in Ireland are all currently with Leinster and Ulster.

Nucifora would probably even love to do a draft to spread the talent more evenly. He has had some wins in the area of inter-provincial movement but has also had to accept that provincial pride and tradition are very real.

In a strange way, it wouldn’t be a surprise if Nucifora really respects what Healy is doing. This is an ambitious young man who was in no way content with the idea of being third-choice in his province and off the radar with his country. He had no intention of holding tackle bags and watching from the stands for the big games. He wants opportunities at the highest level. Healy’s drive should be admired.

Connacht and Ulster didn’t make a play to keep him in Ireland, with Munster being the only province to offer him a contract. So off he heads to make a name for himself with the Scots.

In other instances, there won’t be the carrot of Test rugby but it will be fascinating to see how accurate Nucifora’s prophecy about the provinces ‘running out of space’ for emerging Irish talent will be.

“We have to be creative and thoughtful about what’s going to happen next,” said the Australian.

“I’m not 100% sure what it is yet but we have to find ways for those players to be given hope and opportunities.”

Figuring that one out before he heads off into the sunset would be quite the legacy.

+1

He should be kidnapping some Leinster nippers and threatening their families if they don't sign for Ulster.

[paddybrown]

As far as Ben Healy's concerned, I don't blame him. He's been one of the regular provincial out-halves for the last few seasons, and Ireland have tried out literally everybody but him - Jack Carty, the Byrne brothers at Leinster and Billy Burns have all had a go, and they picked Frawley and Crowley ahead of him before they had any significant provincial experience. If he was playing regularly for Munster and not being considered, why would playing regularly for Ulster or Connacht improve his chances any?

[So It Is]

He is certainly better than Harry Byrne. I don't think I've ever witnessed as much unjustified hype in my life than what the D4 media/ex Leinster players threw Harry's way.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Did you bother to read the nigh on 20 years bit??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did. Didn't realise 17 years = 20 years.

Fan expectation has been chronically too high for nigh on 20 years.

Ah, you also don't appear to realise what nigh on means
Carry on regardless sure, we're brill so we are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Better answer please.

Let's stick to the rugby rather than personal insults, get a bit of debate going and improve the argument.

So our level of expectation should be based on the Ulster team during the amateur era of the 80s and 90s..... I'll assume early 90s as we did nothing after the 94 inter pros until we scraped out of our group in 99 and won a European Cup with no Justins in it.

We've won one league since Irish teams joined in 2001.

This isn't directed at yourself Soda, theres an overwhelming majority think we should be winning silverware every season.

Truth is we've never shown pedigree in the pro era to indicate we should be.

I'd be fairly confident the number of Ulster fans who think we should win trophies every season is zero.

We should be winning more than we have though. 1 trophy in 20 years is absolutely pitiful when you consider our resources, and you consider the amount of absolute dross that exists or existed in the league we play in.

The way we consistently fall short, always bottling it, always throwing it away, is remarkable. I doubt there is another club in Europe as bad as us when it comes to winning big, tight matches.

It's possible we're the worst in the world at it, never mind Europe.

Exactly. Ref Connacht, Glasgow and Scarlets for recent silverware in contrast to our drought. No way they are as well resourced. As TUV Jim would say; Squander!

[CIMANFOREVER]

From the outside it seems as if Ulster are crying out for leadership since Best retired. Henderson is a super player, but he doesn’t seem to have that ability to galvanise others. There is a sense the team is somewhat missing its soul, there is no one players the others rally around, none of the senior forwards like Herring/Timoney seem that vocal or capable of stepping into that gap. Individually there are enough good players but they are not coming together as a collective.
Unfortunately like Munster a couple of seasons back I suspect Ulster have gone past the point of too many imports, essentially they’ve have diluted what it means to play for Ulster to the point where its play for pay rather than play for passion/pride in your place, with pay an afterthought/added bonus. When you have that kind of a culture and the choices are going to dark places to win a game or opting out but making an effort to look like you’re trying but in truth you’re not arsed, unfortunately it’s the latter that’s happening. Looking from the outside DVM is thinking about what he is spending the money on already. Murphy is fit – watched him in the warm up in the RDS a few weeks ago, didn't seem to be a bother on him - assume he is on reasonably big money too but haven’t seen much of him this season. Paying someone £150K(?) to hold tackle bags is not going to be great for squad morale. Ulster needs more Ulster and less SA/Leinster. They need to get the pride back in the jersey. The Royston Vasey approach is the way forward, 85/90% local with two or three well chosen imports to supplement the local lads, your home grown backline is to die for. There is obviously young talent there, it is being brought through in certain positions but not others. The Ulster schools cup standard is still excellent, the bridge between schools and the Ulster academy for forwards needs to be looked at.
&DMcF needs to bench Burns, he’s been on one leg for over a month and he is getting picked off. Cant understand why Ulster are letting him kick penalties and he is getting 20 yards when you've Stockdale there who can kick it a mile. Strange. In truth think Burns is a good squad player but is he really a No1 who is going to drive a team to a league or HEC success? I’m not convinced. Makes Healy going to Scotland all the more interesting, I’d love to know did Ulster have a genuine look or did they pass without giving it serious consideration.

I'm fairly sure that the players play for more than pay. Like most teams, they play for each other. But yes, the provincial pride thing has become less of a factor. Everyone refers to 'the club' now - does my nut in. P.O'C. talked about the fear of letting the province down, I'm not sure that is more than a sound-byte for most players today.

I also agree about the need for better on-field leaders. Ironically, though it is not another home-grown Best, we need, but another Muller.

POC had mentors like the Claw and Galwey etc who were pathological in their local provincial pride, rather than driven by money. Part of the fear was getting a boot up the hole from these guys if he was perceived as too soft/ letting club or Province down. We havent had that type of mentality/ biff for many years now, probably not since N. Best etc. Basically our forwards are pussy cats

[solidarity]

"When someone else suggested that the IRFU should buy a Premiership club, Nucifora said it was more important to be smart in how they work with the four provinces. And yet, he didn’t totally kibosh the notion."

Of course the obvious one is... London Irish?

Could raise lots of very interesting issues!!!!

[Jetstream]

"When someone else suggested that the IRFU should buy a Premiership club, Nucifora said it was more important to be smart in how they work with the four provinces. And yet, he didn’t totally kibosh the notion."

Of course the obvious one is... London Irish?

Could raise lots of very interesting issues!!!!

The last figures I saw London Irish were over £37m in debt. I can't see the IRFU taking them over unless this debt was written off. Would the English Rugby Union be keen on the IRFU being the owner of an English based club ?

[allezlesverres]

The London Irish thing is pie in the sky. Leaving aside the debt, the only way it would work would be to bring Irish into the URC. The meath one is a better idea but it's still far fetched and Leinster would never agree to it.

[Dave]

FIRFU must be flush with cash if that's true. Too dumb to use it properly.

[Dave]

The London Irish thing is pie in the sky. Leaving aside the debt, the only way it would work would be to bring Irish into the URC. The meath one is a better idea but it's still far fetched and Leinster would never agree to it.

They couldn't because then our Paddy would be back in the fold, as it were.

[Jackie Brown]

The London Irish thing is pie in the sky. Leaving aside the debt, the only way it would work would be to bring Irish into the URC. The meath one is a better idea but it's still far fetched and Leinster would never agree to it.

Surely Leinster are told what happens, they don't have to agree. That's how it works with Ulster

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