Dan’s Not the Man.

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

Moderator: Moderators

UlsterAreBrill
Initiate
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by UlsterAreBrill »

CIMANFOREVER wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:00 pm
UlsterAreBrill wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:24 pm
So It Is wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:23 am McCall leaving Sarries and turning down probably a host of quality job offers to come to Ulster, would be a akin to him leaving a high-end 6-figure job in London/New York to go work as a Level 4 Civil Servant job on 30k a year at County Hall in Ballymena.

Not. A. Chance.
Bit of hyperbole there perhaps. Sarries are hardly lighting up the prem currently and IMO their current squad probably has peaked and will only be in decline over the next few years.

As far as things go Ulster actually have a very good squad who are underperforming massively, in some sense it is a poisoned chalice of a job in that historically it doesn’t go right for very many, or for a relatively short period of time but if a coach is confident he can get it right there is serious potential as far as the squad goes.

The other thing is, and just purely speculating, I doubt McCall is entirely motivated by money. I assume his salary changed somewhat when Sarries got relegated or at the very least he had offers for bigger pay packets elsewhere and obviously turned them all down.
A bit of hyperbole is forgivable given the hyperbole and hype Ulster have had swirling around them down through the last couple of decades, mostly from themselves or their cheerleaders/ shills in the press or on Bakebook etc. Totally disproportionate.

McCall no chance unless it was a stepping stone to Ireland imo. He owes us nothing for a harsh learning curve despite being Ulster to his core.

This Ulster team, when you break down age and injury profiles, is only strong on paper; paper never won anything sadly. Sarries I believe will rebuild quickly under Small.

Ulster have a significant tranche of senior players with only 1 or 2 years left or 1 injury away from retirement. Change is needed NOW.
They’re only strong on paper because they have been underperforming massively. However, if you look at each player individually and think about how they played when they were in form, provided the coach can get them all/majority of the players in form together (which is his job after all), for a consistent period of time, then they are more than just strong on paper. Part of that granted is playing players in form regularly and consistently which Dan has never really done.

Let’s not forgot not that long ago we were beating Toulouse away, Northampton away (not the most significant bar having a backline of nearly all homegrown players), almost beating Leinster in Aviva. So there is evidence of, under the right system, our players can be very good.

The only players i’d suggest aren’t good enough from a likely starting XV, even on paper, would be Treadwell and Burns.

As far as coaches go, we should be throwing all the money at Noel McNamara to join in some capacity.
So It Is
Initiate
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by So It Is »

I don't know about us having a quality team.

My 1st XV:

Kitshoff - Top quality international.
Herring - very good Euro standard. Always done well in Green as well.
Marty - was very good Euro standard but looks done.
Hendy - Top Quality International.
Treadwell - URC standard
Ewers - should be a very good Euro standard but ain't seen it yet for Ulster
McCann - promising to be a good Euro standard player but needs to keep pushing
Timoney - I really like Timoney. He's a good Euro standard for me, but I don't think he is international quality.

Cooney - Euro standard
Burns - URC standard

Stockdale - he has never threatened to get back to his 2018 form since dropping the ball over the line in Dublin in 2019. But that was a very high standard tbf, but he just doesn't impact games more than I'd expect any "normal" winger to do these days. He is URC standard for me these days (I know I'll get shouted down for this one . . )

Big Stu - European standard capable of either a big performance or a stupid performance

Hume - Euro standard

Bob - Barely URC standard this season

Lowry - URC/Euro standard

So I have 2 top quality players in Kitshoff and Hendy, and at a push, 3 players in Herring, Timoney and Big Stu that are at the upper end of Euro standard (question marks over Timoney and Stu).

Possibly 2 more if Ewers starts performing, and McCann can keep backing up his good early season form.

The fallen angels in there are Treaders, Hume, Stockdale, Bob and Lowry, who in the past have been top drawer, but it has been too long since they have consistently performed at a high enough level to be considered quality players anymore imo.

So all in all, I don't see the argument to say we have a strong squad.

Come at me bro :cowboy:
Big-al
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 5047
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:20 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by Big-al »

Lowry is barely URC standard this season. Moore is probably the better fullback.

11. Stockdale
14. Addison
15. Moore

Would be a better back 3 than the one selected last weekend. Baloucoune and Lowry have been atrocious.
UlsterAreBrill
Initiate
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:30 pm

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by UlsterAreBrill »

So It Is wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:25 pm I don't know about us having a quality team.

My 1st XV:

Kitshoff - Top quality international.
Herring - very good Euro standard. Always done well in Green as well.
Marty - was very good Euro standard but looks done.
Hendy - Top Quality International.
Treadwell - URC standard
Ewers - should be a very good Euro standard but ain't seen it yet for Ulster
McCann - promising to be a good Euro standard player but needs to keep pushing
Timoney - I really like Timoney. He's a good Euro standard for me, but I don't think he is international quality.

Cooney - Euro standard
Burns - URC standard

Stockdale - he has never threatened to get back to his 2018 form since dropping the ball over the line in Dublin in 2019. But that was a very high standard tbf, but he just doesn't impact games more than I'd expect any "normal" winger to do these days. He is URC standard for me these days (I know I'll get shouted down for this one . . )

Big Stu - European standard capable of either a big performance or a stupid performance

Hume - Euro standard

Bob - Barely URC standard this season

Lowry - URC/Euro standard

So I have 2 top quality players in Kitshoff and Hendy, and at a push, 3 players in Herring, Timoney and Big Stu that are at the upper end of Euro standard (question marks over Timoney and Stu).

Possibly 2 more if Ewers starts performing, and McCann can keep backing up his good early season form.

The fallen angels in there are Treaders, Hume, Stockdale, Bob and Lowry, who in the past have been top drawer, but it has been too long since they have consistently performed at a high enough level to be considered quality players anymore imo.

So all in all, I don't see the argument to say we have a strong squad.

Come at me bro :cowboy:
Sorry but this is nonsense.

Our front row is very good to excellent, Moore has been back for what, 3 games or so and looks done? Of course he won't look match fit at this stage.
Treadwell I agree with as per my post above, Hendy very good and would have a load more Ireland caps if not for other options.
Ewers has barely played
McCann has arguably been our best forward this season
Timoney not international quality, I agree, however that doesn't reduce his quality.

Stockdale, Harlequins aside, has been quite good this season as has Hume and Lowry.

I'm all for coaching changes but it is plain wrong to suggest our squad is not good enough. Our current best XV is on par with, if not better, than the team that beat Toulouse away 18 months ago. Coaching and being out of form is the issue, not player quality/talent/ability, or however you want to word it.
So It Is
Initiate
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by So It Is »

We shall agree to disagree UlsterAreBrill.

Our squad is way behind where it needs to be in terms of quality. Hence why we are out of the European Cup. We have flooded our ranks with average journeymen season after season, and most of our homegrown talent are performing orders of magnitude below par, and have been for quite some time that it cannot be taken as a given that they will ever get back to that level.

I agree that the coaching is a problem and also needs to change.

So just a total rebuild, nice and easy :fleg:
User avatar
HammerTime
Warrior Assassin
Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:02 pm

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by HammerTime »

So It Is wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:23 am McCall leaving Sarries and turning down probably a host of quality job offers to come to Ulster, would be a akin to him leaving a high-end 6-figure job in London/New York to go work as a Level 4 Civil Servant job on 30k a year at County Hall in Ballymena.

Not. A. Chance.
I agree we've no hope but shouldn't stop us dreaming. You never know, hey may miss home, have Ireland ambitions etc.
jean valjean
Chancellor to the King
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:03 pm

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by jean valjean »

I'd say humph knows exactly what McCalls feelings are about a return. It is perhaps an end of an era for saracens will farrell leaving and the vinapolas on the wane, I can't imagine McCall had ambitions elsewhere in England and a move abroad is a bigger family upheaval than coming home. Never underestimate the pulling power of having wider family a short drive away. I wonder if he fancies reuniting with Davidson at ulster? Would be a nice ticket but timings will need to align at some stage.
So It Is
Initiate
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by So It Is »

I would love to be proven completely wrong on the McCall front, but I struggle to see it.

I know Sarries are on the wane but the guy has a serious CV, he would be near the top of the list for any big job in Europe. So if he bins Sarries, he could go anywhere he pleased.

The tug of home might be strong, but jeez what a cleanup operation he'd have on his hands, getting rid of all the journeymen, cleaning up the pampered culture of the indigenous players, building from scratch a winning culture, having to work with incompetent backroom management like Bryn etc., he'd need to have his head checked to consider all that, and the fact he'd have a shoe-string budget and be under all the usual constraints of IRFU recruitment/player management policies.

And even if he still wanted it, in the aid of getting a shot at the Ireland job down the line when Farrell eventually goes, ROG will have first refusal over it everyday of the week ahead of him. So that ain't a guarantee.
Big-al
Lord Chancellor
Posts: 5047
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:20 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by Big-al »

How will ROG have first refusal over it?

12 months makes a helluva difference, never mind 4 years until after the next World Cup.

Humphrey’s will have a massive say in who the next Irish head coach will be. If he gives McCall the incentive to come home to Ulster, do a good job and be within a huge chance of replacing Farrell then it’ll be a tough gig to turn down.

McCalls CV is much more impressive than o’garas, that alone should or could put him on top of the list.
So It Is
Initiate
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by So It Is »

ROG is a Munster and Irish rugby icon, that happens to be a very good coach, and has had some very dramatic recent success on the European level. I'd be amazed if he wasn't the clear favourite for the next shot at the job.

McCall might be every bit as good, if not better as a coach, but his "brand" is tiny compared to ROG. And that'll be a big factor, like all the Liverpool fans currently wetting themselves that either Alonso or Stevie G will take over from Klopp.
So It Is
Initiate
Posts: 377
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by So It Is »

P.S I'm not saying I agree with ROG getting picked over McCall, but the Southern Media will demand it, and due to the amount of hype they'll generate he'll be the popular choice.
User avatar
thecrouch
Chancellor to the King
Posts: 3078
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Mexico

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by thecrouch »

I don't think either McCall or ROG will get the D4 job unless they come back to coach at a province first.
NUCIFORA IS A BELLEND
jean valjean
Chancellor to the King
Posts: 3204
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:03 pm

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by jean valjean »

User avatar
Cap'n Grumpy
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 15704
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:21 pm
Location: second barrier up, at the half-way line ... or is the third?

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Horse15 wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:02 pm >bud
Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:02 pm
Horse15 wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:19 pm Completely outclassed at every level. Timoney, the Leinster man, the only bright spot. Apparently we have talent coming through… the whole system is wrecked. We have had the policy of trying to turn athletes into rugby players, that horse is flogged to death. This all starts at schools/youth level.
Ah well then. No point in blaming DMcF et al then?

Players are broken before they even get them.

>flog

FYI, that horse above is flogged to death. Is that you, 15? :shock:
The horse lives :cheers: >you_rock

Give 15 Michael Webb's job

Who needs medicine when we have a miracle man?
I'm not arguing -
I'm just explaining why I'm right
User avatar
Cap'n Grumpy
Rí­ na Cúige Uladh
Posts: 15704
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:21 pm
Location: second barrier up, at the half-way line ... or is the third?

Re: Dan’s Not the Man.

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

UlsterAreBrill wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:12 pm
So It Is wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:25 pm I don't know about us having a quality team.

My 1st XV:

Kitshoff - Top quality international.
Herring - very good Euro standard. Always done well in Green as well.
Marty - was very good Euro standard but looks done.
Hendy - Top Quality International.
Treadwell - URC standard
Ewers - should be a very good Euro standard but ain't seen it yet for Ulster
McCann - promising to be a good Euro standard player but needs to keep pushing
Timoney - I really like Timoney. He's a good Euro standard for me, but I don't think he is international quality.

Cooney - Euro standard
Burns - URC standard

Stockdale - he has never threatened to get back to his 2018 form since dropping the ball over the line in Dublin in 2019. But that was a very high standard tbf, but he just doesn't impact games more than I'd expect any "normal" winger to do these days. He is URC standard for me these days (I know I'll get shouted down for this one . . )

Big Stu - European standard capable of either a big performance or a stupid performance

Hume - Euro standard

Bob - Barely URC standard this season

Lowry - URC/Euro standard

So I have 2 top quality players in Kitshoff and Hendy, and at a push, 3 players in Herring, Timoney and Big Stu that are at the upper end of Euro standard (question marks over Timoney and Stu).

Possibly 2 more if Ewers starts performing, and McCann can keep backing up his good early season form.

The fallen angels in there are Treaders, Hume, Stockdale, Bob and Lowry, who in the past have been top drawer, but it has been too long since they have consistently performed at a high enough level to be considered quality players anymore imo.

So all in all, I don't see the argument to say we have a strong squad.

Come at me bro :cowboy:
Sorry but this is nonsense.

Our front row is very good to excellent, Moore has been back for what, 3 games or so and looks done? Of course he won't look match fit at this stage.
Treadwell I agree with as per my post above, Hendy very good and would have a load more Ireland caps if not for other options.
Ewers has barely played
McCann has arguably been our best forward this season
Timoney not international quality, I agree, however that doesn't reduce his quality.

Stockdale, Harlequins aside, has been quite good this season as has Hume and Lowry.

I'm all for coaching changes but it is plain wrong to suggest our squad is not good enough. Our current best XV is on par with, if not better, than the team that beat Toulouse away 18 months ago. Coaching and being out of form is the issue, not player quality/talent/ability, or however you want to word it.
Not gonna nit-pick my way through all of that but would make two comments (one of which may not stand up to scrutiny as I haven't checked)

1 Hume is playing his way back into form. He has been much better this season than last, but perhaps his problem is trying too hard to makean impression to coaches both at Ravenspan and in Dublin? Needs to rein in the aggression at times.

2 As much as our current best XV may be on a par with the team that beat Toulouse away 18 months ago, I suggest that Toulouse are nothing like the team of 18 months ago. They are a team playing at the top of their game and full of comnfidence, which I doubt they were back then (albeit, Tououse are never a poor team).
I'm not arguing -
I'm just explaining why I'm right
Post Reply