Jerome Garces

[mikerob]

Rumncoke - you are twisting yourself into contortions to try and justify something that can't be justified.

We'll see what specific laws the disciplinary committee use for Payne's hearing, but they are likely to be from 10.4 "Dangerous play and misconduct".

(e) Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.

A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

(i) Tackling the jumper in the air. A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.

(j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

So there are no less that 3 different references to interfering with a player off the ground being dangerous - how many do you need?

The collision between Payne and the player with the ball still counts as a tackle, albeit an illegal one.

There is really no debate that it is dangerous play - the only point of discussion is the degree of punishment. There aren't hard and fast rules as to what would be a penalty and a caution, a yellow card and a red card, so this is up to the referee's training and judgement, "case law", instructions from the ruling body and the like and a different referee may have applied a different punishment.

[BR]

100% agree. It was a definite yellow but they may as well have handed them the victory when he sent him off

No blame can be attached to Garces for this but i also think we would have won had Pienaar been fully fit. Marshall did better than expected though but Pienaar is a gamechanger

Payne was the gamechanger, but Pienaar missed penalty to touch was the nail in the coffin for me.

[Eggs]

Garbage.

Wasn't a red, Im not going to quote rules in much the same way that I wouldn't be bothered to debate that the oranges are orange.

Appalling refereeing, last night was the Garces show. Unless every tackle in the air is now a red.

And as much as I know this is going to be greeted with disgust by many, I hope Goode gets a proper injury, he milked that and karma's a b3tch.

[Snipe Watson]

How do you know Eggs?
There's no point parroting a few points from the laws. Unless you have the latest up to date set of decisions and interpretations of the rules from the international referees conference a couple of months back and any amendments that have been made since, you're in the dark.

If you play golf, you probably have a copy of the rules of the game, but the book you need is Decisions on the Rules of Golf. It's about ten times the size and is the book referees carry.

[silliwilli]

100% agree. It was a definite yellow but they may as well have handed them the victory when he sent him off

No blame can be attached to Garces for this but i also think we would have won had Pienaar been fully fit. Marshall did better than expected though but Pienaar is a gamechanger

Payne was the gamechanger, but Pienaar missed penalty to touch was the nail in the coffin for me.

Definately. Led to Saracens try. Poor effort.

[Ithryn]

I'm glad Goode was ok.

Payne should have jumped, then if would have been nothing more than two people competing for the ball. sadly he didn't, and as a result he collided dangerously with a player in the air.

I'm still livid about it, personally I think it was a yellow at worst but I'm biased.

[Cockatrice]

The referees decision whether right or wrong was the definitive moment and I feared the worse. The fact that we kept them to two points says a lot and to be honest I think our 16th man stepped in and played for the first time at Ravenhill.....Hats off to the supporters.....

Not sure what Sarries fans will have thought probably that we are a bunch of ignorant paddies who shouted and showed them little or no respect.

I watched Borthwick interviewed after the game the first question being did he think it was a red card. He answered the first thing anyone should be asking was whiter the player was seriously injuried. I though he would have known as it happened in the first five and the player was back out on the bench laughing and joking and would have also been in the changing room at half time. Strange Sky then had to advise him the player was OK.

On that and not wishing to take away from what could have been a serious injury..... But I have never seen such a 'serious injury' based on time given to it, the number of medican staff, the number of stretchers and the players initial reaction to have changed in such a short space of time we are not even talking days or hours but a few minutes later when the same player walked out with his head covered by a hood to avoid being seen almost and then laughing and joking as if we got him sent off.

[Eggs]

How do you know Eggs?
There's no point parroting a few points from the laws. Unless you have the latest up to date set of decisions and interpretations of the rules from the international referees conference a couple of months back and any amendments that have been made since, you're in the dark.

If you play golf, you probably have a copy of the rules of the game, but the book you need is Decisions on the Rules of Golf. It's about ten times the size and is the book referees carry.

I know because every tackle in the air would otherwise be a red card! And its not!

[Rocket]

On another point, the penalty that paddy Jackson kicked and hit the post, I thought we were playing advantage for a penalty in front of the posts and should have gone back to that??

[daveysemtex]

if a scrum goes down and a prop goes off with a neck injury is the other prop red carded?

that injury last night happened as part of the game, no malicious intent. it was an accident caused by the physicality of a contract sport.

garces was an absolute joke. he's lucky this decision is camouflaging his all round inept display. lost count of the amount of offsides in the saracens back divisions and a saracen went off his feet and nearly every breakdown. disgrace

[mikerob]

How do you know Eggs?
There's no point parroting a few points from the laws. Unless you have the latest up to date set of decisions and interpretations of the rules from the international referees conference a couple of months back and any amendments that have been made since, you're in the dark.

If you play golf, you probably have a copy of the rules of the game, but the book you need is Decisions on the Rules of Golf. It's about ten times the size and is the book referees carry.

I know because every tackle in the air would otherwise be a red card! And its not!

Every tackle in the air should at least be a penalty - that is clear. Whether it is a penalty, YC or RC depends on the specifics on the incident, the refs judgement and guidelines given to the ref.

[mikerob]

if a scrum goes down and a prop goes off with a neck injury is the other prop red carded?

If the ref believes that dangerous play by the other prop has caused the injury, then yes, he could be red carded.

[BR]

On another point, the penalty that paddy Jackson kicked and hit the post, I thought we were playing advantage for a penalty in front of the posts and should have gone back to that??

I thought that too. Sometimes ref's signals were a little ambiguous. Of course, with the emergency game-plan we were using, if it were a penalty advantage, we should have dotted down and taken the 3.

[Eggs]

if a scrum goes down and a prop goes off with a neck injury is the other prop red carded?

If the ref believes that dangerous play by the other prop has caused the injury, then yes, he could be red carded.

The point being that the degree of injury is irrelevant tho !

[mikerob]

if a scrum goes down and a prop goes off with a neck injury is the other prop red carded?

If the ref believes that dangerous play by the other prop has caused the injury, then yes, he could be red carded.

The point being that the degree of inure is irrelevant tho !

It may be relevant for the level of punishment given by the ref. If a player swings a punch but doesn't connect, the ref could decide that is a YC. If a player swings a punch, connects and the other player is poleaxed, the ref could decide that is a RC.